THE BOOHISS INCIDENT ON THE INDESIGN MAILINGLIST is a report about what can happen on a public mailinglist, in this case the InDesign mailinglist at OmniPilot (formerly Blueworld, later Lassosoft) when somebody chooses to misunderstand and to read in meanings into something despite what they think is there is not.
Another heading for this report could be BECAUSE HE/SHE/WE COULD which were the keywords for the outbrake.
The mails appear approximately in the order they were sent to the list. I’ve deleted parts of the emails that are not interesting in this context, and I’ve deleted the names of the authors in most cases, and their email-addresses in all cases.
This is where it started with a comment I made to an ongoing disussion about font management programs:
On Mar 20, 2005, at 10:34 PM, wrote:
Mostly because i can, because i’m always interested in what’s possible.
To which fc wrote in response On 21 mar 2005, at 15.53
Good enough answer for me!
And I answered on 21 March 2005 16.02.35 MET
Hmm. Just this morning read an article quoting Bill Clinton saying he did what he did just because he could (concerning Monica)… seems to be a valid reason these days.
To which Isabelle answered with this outbreak on March 21 st 2005 at 18.34.55 MET:
BOO! HISS! Not on this list too! It would be nice if there is somewhere I can go without people bringing up politics.
At the very least it would be nice if a reply like this carried an OT tag so I could open at my own risk. 🙁
How disappointing, on this, of all lists.
So I answered on March 21st 2005 at 18.54.59 MET:
?? I really think you are overreacting and being overly sensitive here 😉
Nothing political in that comment, not in meaning and not in intention.
We were discussing reasons for doing things (in this case using the Font and DA Mover in Classic), among other things the reason “because I could”.
This came to mind then because of something I read this morning.
And just like a lot (and I mean a LOT) of other things the last half year or so has not been labelled OT there was no reason to do it here either.
To which FCLA commented:
Bravo, Nini! Crank it up.
A few rigid young “professionals” have taken over the list and have drained it of humour. It amazes me that MB is allowed to birth the occasional pun run. Not that the InDesign list was ever a barrel of laughs like the PageMaker list could be at times, of course. A bit dry from the offset. But speaking as one who goes back to the old PageMaker forums on AOL, this is sad to see. Very sad to see indeed.
And E. commented the following on March 21st at 18.59.21 MET to Isabells outbrake:
This is not politics. This is a humorous observation of a current trend. Please … I’m only saying this because I can … (or can’t I?)
To which F commented:
Yes, you can. And I’m glad you did. 🙂
So fc wrote:
Oooh – I’m going to be a Bad Boy now…
By the way, have you heard the one about Monica taking her dress to a hard-of-hearing dry cleaner?
So BillB answered:
Oooh – I’m going to be a Bad Boy now…
By the way, have you heard the one about Monica taking her dress to a hard-of-hearing dry cleaner?
And I am unsubscribing.
To the same comment from Isabelle, Bob answered on March 21st at 21.00.18 MET:
Oh for pity’s sake, lighten up. I don’t think Nini (who isn’t a US citizen) was being political.
And Rick commented:
What?s a little humor during the day while we all work?
To Bill JS answered:
If you change the channel how will you get your Daily Dose o’ Dov?
And Bob commented:
We should never have to read anything that we don’t find pleasing. 🙂
To all this Isabelle answered both offlist to certain of us and onlist the following:
People have written:
– This is not politics. This is a humorous observation of a current trend.Current? The situation mentioned is SEVEN years old.
– ?? I really think you are overreacting and being overly sensitive here 😉 Nothing political in that comment, not in meaning and not in intention.
Then why not be safe and use a neutral example (George Leigh Mallory)? Certainly there are more recent, or even older, examples in U.S. politics if you felt the need to add this type of commentary to an otherwise interesting and helpful thread.
– By the way, have you heard the one about
On another list or at least bearing an OT tag.
– Oh for pity’s sake, lighten up. I don’t think Nini (who isn’t a US citizen) was being political.
Oh, for pity’s sake? *You* may not think that the post was political, but do you get to decide for everyone? What’s so hard about respecting everyone and keeping such remarks off the list? I’d be just as unhappy with needless commentary on Prince Charles or Tony Blair or Vincente Fox.
– What?s a little humor during the day while we all work?
Who gets to decide what is humorous for the rest of us?
– We should never have to read anything that we don’t find pleasing. 🙂
PRECISELY why, all excuses aside, it should at the very least have been labelled OT. Better, there are chatter lists specifically for that kind of discussion.
As I said, disappointing.
–end of Isabelles long anser—
To which JS answered:
Two readings from “The Return of the Archons”
==================================
You have come as destroyers.
You bring an infection.
You have come to a world without hate,
without fear,
without conflict…
no war…
no disease…
no crime…
none of the ancient evils.
Landru seeks tranquillity…
peace for all…
the universal good.
The good must transcend the evil.
It shall be done.
So it has been since the beginning.
You will be absorbed.
Your individuality will merge
into the unity of good,
and in your submergence into the common being of the body,
you will find contentment
and fulfillment.
You will experience…
the absolute good.
======================================
Fascinating. This is merely a hollow tube, Captain
To which Bob commented:
Even this will offend someone on this list 🙂
My own comment to Isabelle was:
I am amazed … and I do not understand your reaction at all.
For heavens sake lighten up and don’t read things into to something it never was and make up plots that never existed.
And don’t please start a war about non-existing things.
Nobody has been political here.
Again: we were just making friendly non-sensical comments in general about the tendency to do things “just because you could/can”. And on a perfectly on topic matter: font handling.
To which Bob said:
Nini, you’re entitled to your opinion and I respect that. There was nothing wrong, displaced or offending in your comment this morning about you know who.
And Jims comment to Isabell was:
Did you start this new thread with an OT tag?
Usually the quickest way to stop a thread propagating, or indeed mutating into another one, is, don’t post!
For myself I find the asides just as interesting as the ID stuff… but I was raised on the QuarkXPress List…
To which Isabell answered:
– Did you start this new thread with an OT tag?
No, I did not, because I thought asking people to refrain from politics was completely on-topic. At the very least, the subject was completely descriptive of the contents.
If you think it is off-topic, I apologize to you and to others who may have been misled by my lack of tag. I’ll add it now. Again, my apologies.
P.S. Thank you for not making the “necessary on a firetruck?” joke I’ve heard all my life. I’m sure many of you have thought it; I appreciate your restraint. 😉
Then Isabelle came back with a vengance and said on March 22nd at 00.57.49 MET:
– There was nothing wrong, displaced or offending
In your opinion.
Not in mine.
Why is your opinion more important or more correct than mine?
I am sick of hearing about this adulterer, people making jokes as if what he did was nothing to worry about. It happened years ago yet he keeps being brought up. He hurt his wife, he devastated his daughter, and we think it’s okay to banter this indiscretion about as a joke on a professional list? How is that *not* offensive?
No. There are other lists for that kind of political talk. Stop making excuses for this.
– I am amazed … and I do not understand your reaction at all. For heavens sake lighten up and don’t read things into to something it never was and make up plots that never existed.
That you can’t see what you wrote or even apologize for offending, EVEN IF YOU DIDN’T MEAN TO, is what’s *really* amazing. It’s not up to you to understand my reaction, only to respect it! I don’t care if you didn’t intend to bring up a political matter, you did it, and you should stop making excuses and own up to it. I don’t care if you thought it was okay to skip the OT tag because others had done it, you thought wrong — their OT wasn’t disgusting or controversial or political. You made your choices.
– Again: we were just making friendly non-sensical comments in general about the tendency to do things “just because you could/can”. And on a perfectly on topic matter: font handling.
We weren’t making friendly nonsensical comments about ex-Presidents ruining people’s lives; that has nothing to do with font handling. You made a mistake with your offtopic post. That you continue to duck your responsibility in this matter speaks volumes.
Where do either of you draw the line for what’s permissible? Shall we make jokes about Terri Schiavo? abortion? the Pope’s illness? tsunami victims?
Abu Ghraib? Is nothing off limits?
I made a simple request: To keep politics off this professional list. It is beyond me why this request is being belittled as if it has no merit.
— end of Isabelles long reply —
To which Brian commented:
– What’s so hard about respecting everyone and keeping such remarks off the list?
What about respecting Nini’s right to use a familiar public news event as a parallel/contrasting point in an on topic discussion?!
It would be nice if certain members of this list would stop LOOKING for things to take offense to. It’s more then obvious that what Nini said was not of ill intent. So get over it already.
At which point D. said:
On this list, can’t we all just go back to making bad puns, 🙂 or better yet, solve problems associated with InDesign-based workflows?
To which JS answered:
Only a direct bad-good-pun intervention from MB can achieve what you’re asking.
or better yet, solve problems associated with InDesign-based workflows?
Aw come on…don’t you just love the smell of a good, and very tame, flame war in the morning?
And Brian said:
I suck and making bad puns. I’m too straight-laced! 😉
or better yet, solve problems associated with InDesign-based workflows?
This could work! 😉
So Isabelle said:
– or better yet, solve problems associated with InDesign-based workflows?
Amen. That’s all I was asking.
To which JS commented:
Oh, so what stopped you from asking an InDesign question today?
And DCs comment to D was:
I like to think of every bad pun as a workflow problem that never happened.
By then Bob said:
This has been flogged to death, but some hypersensitive individuals have used more band width whining about a very minor wise crack than the original ever could have wasted. Do what I do: if you don’t like a remark, ignore it — this is a fun, informative gang of people. If you had a guest at a party and they told a joke you weren’t thrilled with, would you have them thrown out?
Jeeze, give me a break.
Which HS commented with:
And then bomb Iraq and kill people because Monica was on the front page…
Because he could!
Bush and Iraq
<chorus now>
Pay no attention to that irony-challenged person….
To which I answered offlist:
No I won’t pay attention to that person. I am just shaking my head in disbelief of how paranoid and touchy some people can be.
She (or is it a he?) sent me (and a number of other people on the list) a mail offline and still goes on about the comment being political. Well, they wasn’t. She demands an apology. She isn’t getting one. That persons comments are so ridiculous they are unbelievable.
To which HS commented:
Especially given the fact that 99.9999% of your posts never mention politics.
The problem is that this is the internet; if it were in person, you would see how they are and avoid them….
And fc offlist said the following:
This off-list note to say that I thought your Bill Clinton remark was funny – and just fine. I think that any list like this gathers its share of weirdo’s (even me?) and they should be disregarded. I have learned a lot from this list, and from your posts. Please ignore the idiots & keep posting as you always have!
To which I answered offlist on March 22nd at 21.17.18 MET
No I won’t pay attention to that person. I am just shaking my head in disbelief of how paranoid and touchy some people can be.
She (or is it a he?) sent me (and some other people on the list) a real hysterical mail offline and still goes on about the comment being political. Well, it wasn’t. She demands an apology. She isn’t getting one.
That persons comments are so ridiculous they are unbelievable. Haven’t had the time today to answer that email (have been with clients all day) but I will when I get the time for it. Offlist. But reply I will or she will think she silenced me (I am not that easily silenced).
I will not carry on the thread on the list though as I couldn’t comment immediately due to the time differences and also because there is enough off-topic chatter on the list these days as it is. I normally try to not contribute to that, but the friendly non-sensical bantering we were going on with under that topic was hard to resist. Especially when someone mentioned “because he could” on the same day that I read a (actually political) comment about the danger of a society where things are done just “because you could”. That article was about some recent happenings here in Sweden in the Social Democratic Party’s Youth wing, but the comparison was done to that particular comment of Bill Clinton (and what that comment related to) and the discussion was about what a danger to a democratic society an attitude of doing things “because you can” could be. It was a very interesting (political) commentary. My comment though was as far from political that it could be though.
That person must have a dull life where laughing and joking about things must be scarce and she must be offended all the time then. Some people unfortunately are like that. I grew up with, made friends with, and have worked with mainly males all my life, and have never really had female friends. So I am very used to the way the joking can be when in a mainly male group and I do not get easily offended. I’m quite thick skinned (or whatever you say in English).
I’ll keep on posting as usual (on and off depending on how much time I have). Just haven’t had the time to since last night because of clients (had to turn over a smallish website to one and then to do some problem-solving plus teaching of OSX and InDesign at another persons place). I just now came home around 20.00hrs my time. It’s been a long day.
That person makes no difference to my participation on the Indesign list. Just proves some people needs to get real about real life and not take everything so seriously.
To which fc commented:
Can you imagine _living_ with someone like that? I would go find a bus to throw myself in front of!
My last reply to Isabelle, offlist on March 24th at 11.36.55 MET was:
Good Morning,
I probably shouldn’t reply to this at all, but I cannot leave it unanswered as that probably would make you think that your mail silenced me. Haven’t simply had the time to reply until now though due to clients and work.
On 22 mar 2005, at 00.57, you wrote in reply to me saying:
“- There was nothing wrong, displaced or offending”
In your opinion.
Not in mine.”
That is your problem. If you choose to misunderstand and read non-existing meanings into innocent non-sensical humorous bantering between list-collegues, there is nothing I, or anybody else, can do about it. That is your problem.
“Why is your opinion more important or more correct than mine?”
In this case because you are reading meanings into something that simply is not there my opinion is the valid one. I know what I was talking about, you apparently don’t. I also know what my intentions was, you apparently did/do not. There was nothing political about it. Nothing. It is all in how you choose to interpret an innocent comment.
“I am sick of hearing about this adulterer, people making jokes as if what he did was nothing to worry about. It happened years ago yet he keeps being brought up. He hurt his wife, he devastated his daughter, and we think it’s okay to banter this indiscretion about as a joke on a professional list? How is that *not* offensive?”
That is your problem. Jokes about public persons are not by automation offensive just because they are made and are something you will have to learn to live with in the real world. In this case the comment wasn’t really about the ex-president at all but about the phenomenon of being able to do things – any things – just because you can/could. You took it out of context and choose to interpret it in a way that was never intended. That the comment of “because I could” was the most important of it you choose to ignore. That that comment happened to be loosely associated to the ex-president was a coincident because of something I read that very morning (which actually neither had anything to do with him or those occurrences but also in that article with the whole philosophy around doing something just because you can).
“No. There are other lists for that kind of political talk. Stop making excuses for this.”
I will never make any excuses for the one innocent comment I made in that context. I am trying to explain to you that it is was not in bad intent or political. But I am not making excuses. Not to you or anybody else.
“I am amazed … and I do not understand your reaction at all.”
For heavens sake lighten up and don’t read things into to something it never was and make up plots that never existed.
“That you can’t see what you wrote or even apologize for offending, EVEN IF YOU DIDN’T MEAN TO, is what’s *really* amazing. It’s not up to you to understand my reaction, only to respect it! I don’t care if you didn’t intend to bring up a political matter, you did it, and you should stop making excuses and own up to it. I don’t care if you thought it was okay to skip the OT tag because others had done it, you thought wrong — their OT wasn’t disgusting or controversial or political. You made your choices.”
You are making mountains out of nothing here. I have nothing to apologise for and am not intending to give any apologise to anybody. Not to you or anybody else. There IS nothing to apologise for. I actually think YOU should apologise for your misinterpretation and your un-called for outburst.
Again: we were just making friendly non-sensical comments in general about the tendency to do things “just because you could/can”. And on a perfectly on topic matter: font handling.
“We weren’t making friendly nonsensical comments about ex-Presidents ruining people’s lives; that has nothing to do with font handling. You made a mistake with your offtopic post. That you continue to duck your responsibility in this matter speaks volumes.”
Again, there was nothing political in the comment. See above. I did no mistake. It belonged in the context it was made. Your outburst does not.
“Where do either of you draw the line for what’s permissible? Shall we make jokes about Terri Schiavo? abortion? the Pope’s illness? tsunami victims? Abu Ghraib? Is nothing off limits?”
Depends on the context and the intention and how it is made. Ever watch a stand-up show about actualities? Probably not. To survive the harsh realities of life you have to be able to laugh at the real life sometimes. Laughing is a common human survival tactic.
“I made a simple request: To keep politics off this professional list. It is beyond me why this request is being belittled as if it has no merit.”
Your request has no merit in this context as there WAS no political comment on the list. You choose to make that interpretation. That is your problem. Not mine or the lists. You crave an apology. As there is nothing to make amends for you will not get one. At least not from me.
Have a nice Easter Holiday and life.
I will say no more in this matter, not to the list and not to you.
— end of my last reply to Isabelle —
And that was the end of the BOO HISS incident. I haven’t really paid attention to if Isabelle is still on the list or not. Might be in “lurk-mode”.
—–
The mailinglist I am reporting from is about InDesign.
Commentary written July 26th, 2005
The philosophical aspects of doing something “just because you can” are interesting in all contexts.
That morning I read an article discussing exactly those aspects – and not particularly Bill Clinton. That his name at all was mentioned was as an example of someone who used that expression for something he did.
The article however was about the general tendency to do something just because you can/could and what that can lead to.
When the exact same argument was used about converting fonts in a particular way, I was reminded about what I read in that article and made that comment.
Who would have known that just by mentioning Bill Clintons name and that sentence in the same breath would push such buttons with somebody? I certainly didn’t.
I will never apologize to anybody for it though. I very simply have nothing to apologize about as I see it.
The difficulty with communication on a mailinglist – particularly an international mailinglist with people from all over the world – is that it is bound to sometimes arise misunderstandings.
It is hard to express in writing what you want to say in a way so nobody ever get offended or reads in meanings into the mails that aren’t there.
Some people on these public lists also are extremely touchy and will misunderstand no matter how you express something or no matter what you say.
Some people like to read in political or religious or other meanings into something said, even though that was never the intention of the author of the mail.
This was such an occasion.
I’ve saved the communication as it is interesting to see how fast something can deteriorate on a public list.
The storm blew over in a couple of days, but it was rather nasty while it lasted.
It’s been quite on the InDesign list ever since. Some people must have unsubscribed…. 😉
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